Interview with Bill Fliss (Marquette University): The active flow of a J.R.R. Tolkien’s manuscript archivist
Franz Brehme
Leia em português aqui
William M. Fliss, or simply Bill Fliss has been an archivist at Marquette University in Wisconsin (USA) since 2012, and among the 114 collections for which he is responsible, there are Tolkien’s manuscripts — of The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, Farmer Giles of Ham, besides illustrations of Mr. Bliss. Since 2015, he has been supervised the “Anduin Project’, which allows researchers to consult The Lord of the Rings manuscripts digitally in their collection. In 2022, he was the curator of the exhibition J.R.R. Tolkien: the Art of the Manuscript, attracting more than 12 thousand people of different nationalities. Currently, among the various tasks he performs at the university library, Fliss is working on the “Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection”, a project with the ambitious goal of collecting 6,000 short interviews from Tolkien enthusiasts from all over the world.
Our friend Franz Brehme met Bill Fliss at the Tolkien Tage event in Germany last year, and interviewed him. Thanks to Franz for publishing it on Tolkienista. Check it out below.
Franz: It’s a pleasure to be in touch with you after our meeting at the beautiful event organized by the German Tolkien Society, the Tolkien Tage. It was an immense pleasure to be able to meet you and your wife in person and to take part in an interview at the project that you were running at the event. I’d like to ask you to explain this project to those who read us, the “Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection”. This way, in your reply, you can introduce yourself and tell us more about what you do and what the aim of the project is.
Bill: Certainly. I am the Tolkien Archivist at Marquette University in the city of Milwaukee, in the state of Wisconsin, in the United States of America. I work in the Department of Archival Collections and Institutional Repository at the Raynor Library on Marquette’s campus. I have worked at Marquette since 2003, and I have been the Tolkien Archivist since 2012. Our department has become a center for Tolkien research over the past half-century. Marquette has accumulated a wide range of useful sources, including many Tolkien manuscripts. We also document Tolkien fandom. That is why I began the “Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection”. It is my attempt to document how fans of all types relate to Tolkien.
The idea is simple. Each fan is given up to three minutes to share their thoughts about Tolkien. They can say what they want, but I do ask them to keep three questions in mind while talking: 1) When did you first encounter the works of Tolkien? 2) Why are you a fan? 3) What has Tolkien meant to you? I record the interviews and then create transcriptions of the audio recordings. Each recording and transcription are published online in a digital collection. At present there are 960 interviews available on the site [by the time the interview was published, it had already increased to 1080. I collect interviews in person and online. Sometimes I travel to events such as Tolkien Tage to gather interviews, but most of the time I gather interviews using Zoom. Fans sign up for a time slot on our calendar. I make slots available a few weeks out. Most of the interviews so far have been in English, but fans are welcome to speak in their native languages. I can get the interviews translated.
I invite your readers, Franz, to consider contributing an interview. I have set a lofty goal: 6,000 interviews. I chose that number because I want to have one fan for each Rider of Rohan that King Théoden led to Minas Tirith. I organize the interviews into éoreds* of 120 interviews. When I finish an éored I upload its interviews to the site. So far, eight éoreds have “mustered.” The ninth will be added by the end of this year [now the ninth is already available on the website]. The tenth is already filled, but it is waiting to be processed. New interviews are joining the eleventh éored. The last thing I should mention about the collection is that I take all the transcriptions and accompanying metadata (age, gender, location) and publish it in a dataset that can be downloaded from Marquette’s site. I hope it will be of interest to digital humanists and people studying fandom.
=–=-=-
I invite your readers, Franz, to consider contributing an interview.
=–=-=-
Franz: Now that we know you work at the (especially famous for Tolkien fans) Marquette University, a more personal question… What was it like taking over as director of the Tolkien collection? Did you already work with Matt Blessing, your predecessor? Can you tell us more about the process?
Bill: It was a great honor to take over responsibility for the Tolkien Collection. It happened because I was in the right place at the right time. Matt Blessing began working with the Tolkien Collection around the year 2000. In addition to being the Tolkien Archivist, Matt was also the department head. It was customary for the department head to also be curator of the Tolkien Collection. I began working at Marquette in 2003 with collections not related to Tolkien. Matt was my supervisor until he left Marquette in 2012 to become the State Archivist of Wisconsin, a big professional step upward for him. Matt was a good department head. I enjoyed working for him. After he left, several months passed before the library hired his replacement. During this interim, the dean of the library appointed me to work temporarily with the Tolkien Collection. After the new department head was hired, both she and the dean decided to have me remain working with Tolkien. I was doing a good job and enjoying it. I knew Tolkien’s fiction well, having been a fan since I was a child, but I have had much to learn about Marquette’s collection. I am still learning new things about it.
=-=-=-
Franz: And moving on to the collection now… I was wondering if you could explain to us how Tolkien “fell in love” with Marquette so that he decided to send many of his manuscripts there. Is there a reason for Tolkien’s interest in the university?
Bill: I am not certain that it was a situation where Tolkien “fell in love” with Marquette. In 1956 the University’s library director, William Ready, hired his friend Bertram Rota (a London book dealer) to act as Marquette’s agent to negotiate the purchase of manuscripts from Professor Tolkien. It did not hurt that Marquette was the first institution to offer money to Tolkien for his manuscripts. Sometimes it pays to be the first to ask. Rota presented a strong case for why Tolkien should sell his manuscripts to Marquette. I think there were factors that influenced Tolkien. Marquette is a Catholic university, and Tolkien was Catholic. Furthermore, Tolkien’s publishers had led him to believe (very mistakenly) that he should not expect to receive further royalties from The Lord of the Rings. This made the money that Marquette was offering much more attractive. Until late in life, Tolkien was always in need of money.
=-=-=-
Franz: And how was Marquette’s relationship with Christopher Tolkien? Has anything changed since his death in the University’s relationship with the Tolkien Estate? For that matter… how does Marquette relate to the Estate?
Bill: Marquette had a good relationship with Christopher Tolkien. During the 1980s and 1990s, we assisted his work on the volumes of The History of Middle-earth that concern the writing of The Lord of the Rings. Christopher even visited Marquette in 1987. After The History of Middle-earth series was completed, his communications with Marquette were much more infrequent. By the time I began working with the collection in 2012, contact between Christopher and Marquette was being handled through an intermediary at the Estate. In terms of policies and procedures, little has changed since Christopher’s death. The Estate still owns copyright to the manuscripts, and we still go to them for permission to share images with researchers.
=-=-=-
Franz: Which manuscripts are with Marquette? Any favorites of yours?
Bill: Marquette owns the manuscripts for The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, and Farmer Giles of Ham, plus the drawings for Mr. Bliss. We received most of these manuscripts in the 1950s, but it was later discovered that Tolkien left many additional Rings manuscripts in England. It was an oversight on his part. He would have sent to Marquette with the others if they had been at hand. His son Christopher sent them to us years later. They increased our Lord of the Rings manuscript collection by fifty percent. I honestly do not have a favorite manuscript or handful of manuscripts. What impresses me most is the The Lord of the Rings manuscript collection as a whole. There are over 9,000 pages of interwoven and interlocking material, constituting a historical record of how Tolkien created his masterpiece. It is remarkable and almost breathtaking.
=-=-=-
There are over 9,000 pages of interwoven and interlocking material, constituting a historical record of how Tolkien created his masterpiece. It is remarkable and almost breathtaking.
=-=-=-
Franz: Can you tell us more about the Anduin Project? What can we access using this system? Are all the manuscripts in the collection available or are there still missing documents? How has the system been used?
Bill: The Anduin™ project began in 2015 but the idea behind it originated twenty-five years earlier. When Christopher Tolkien began sending us the additional manuscripts that I mentioned a moment ago, it became clear that these pages should be joined with and integrated into the manuscripts that came in the 1950s. But this was a complicated situation because Christopher arranged the later manuscripts differently from how Marquette had arranged the earlier manuscripts. Complicating matters further was the fact that these later manuscripts often came from earlier in Tolkien’s writing process than the manuscripts Marquette received in the 1950s. It was a confusing mess. The entire collection needed to be reprocessed, but it was a huge job. Nobody attempted it for many years, and I cannot blame them. In my opinion, only the emergence of digital technology has allowed the project to move forward. We scanned all the manuscripts and mapped out how they relate to each other. Anduin™ is the software we developed that allows researchers to navigate digitally through the manuscripts for The Lord of the Rings to understand how the pieces relate to each other. Because of the copyright situation, the software is only available for use at Marquette. We cannot publish the images online. There are a few documents missing from Anduin™ — stray manuscript pages that ended up at the Bodleian instead of going to Marquette — but I hope to acquire scans of them someday to integrate into our database. Tolkien probably threw out some manuscripts while writing The Lord of the Rings, so there may be missing documents in that sense, too. Several researchers have used Anduin™. Some have focused on drafts of the linguistic material that is contained in the Appendices. Others have tracked the development of certain passages across the book. It is very good for doing that. Christopher Tolkien was selective in what he included in The History of Middle-earth. He did not mention every draft in his analysis and so there is plenty in Anduin™ to keep researchers busy.
=-=-=-
Christopher Tolkien was selective in what he included in The History of Middle-earth. He did not mention every draft in his analysis and so there is plenty in Anduin™ to keep researchers busy.
=-=-=-
Franz: And now let’s talk about the exhibition “The art of the manuscript”. What can you tell us about this exhibition?
Bill: Our exhibition, J.R.R. Tolkien: The Art of the Manuscript, came about when a group from Marquette, including myself, visited Paris in late 2019 to see the Tolkien exhibition at the Bibliothèque nationale de France. We had loaned the BnF many of our manuscripts to use in its exhibition. During that trip, the head of my library told me she wanted Marquette to do its own exhibition. That was how the idea came about. Planning started shortly afterward. It slowed down during the pandemic, and for awhile we were not certain if the exhibition was even going to happen. It was held at the Haggerty Museum of Art on Marquette’s campus from August — December 2022. It relied heavily on manuscripts from Marquette’s collection. I was very happy that we were able to borrow items from the Bodleian’s Tolkien collection. I do not think it would have been nearly as good without the items from the Bodleian. The exhibition was well received. It attracted over 12,000 visitors to the small museum in the fall of 2022. Our exhibition was different from other Tolkien exhibitions because we focused on the manuscripts Tolkien created, and we placed the Professor within a manuscript tradition that stretched back centuries. Unlike other exhibitions, we provided very little biographical information about Tolkien. For example, there were no personal artifacts on display (e.g., smoking pipes, academic robes, etc.). I think our exhibition was more scholarly in focus than other ones. We published a catalogue for the exhibition that contains a picture of every item on display. The book seems to have impressed people. It was nominated for a Tolkien Society award.
=-=-=-
Franz: What else can you tell us about your work as an archivist at Marquette?
Bill: My work at Marquette goes far beyond Tolkien. As general manuscripts archivist, I am responsible for 113 other collections besides Tolkien, and I am also engaged in acquiring new collections for the University. Not all the collections we own get a lot of use, but there are some popular collections besides Tolkien that keep me busy. Up until 2021, I could devote half of my time to working on Tolkien. Now, it must be less because my workload has increased. One of my colleagues retired and he was not replaced. I inherited most of his work.
=-=-=-
Franz: How is the search and/or demand for researchers at Marquette?
Bill: In recent years we have averaged about one serious researcher onsite per month. It varies. I receive many requests for information by email. Due to the vast amount of Tolkien-related material that is scanned and available, either online or through sharing between Tolkien scholars, the people who contact us are usually looking for very specific, hard-to-find sources. I created Anduin™ thinking that it might attract more researchers to Marquette. I am hoping Anduin™ will allow researchers to accomplish in a week what would have taken an entire month to accomplish before it was created.
=-=-=-
Franz: Is there much demand for the physical archives of the collection (we’ve already talked about the electronic medium)?
Bill: Yes, many people contact me wanting to see the original Tolkien manuscripts. We are a pilgrimage site for Tolkien fans passing through Milwaukee. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to do private showings. So, we keep a permanent exhibit of selected reproductions on display in our reading room. To see originals, people must wait until manuscripts are formally exhibited or until I host a public showing at the library. Before the pandemic, I used to do eight public showings per year where I would bring out a selection of originals and talk about them. I stopped doing these public showings because of everything else going on here, but I am planning to host two public showings in 2024 around the time of Tolkien Reading Day (25 March) and Hobbit Day (22 September). I hope to make this a tradition. There is still a great demand to see the physical manuscripts.
=-=-=-
Franz: How should someone who wants to study Tolkien academically at Marquette proceed?
Bill: The person should email me directly and explain what it is they hope to accomplish during the visit. I work with them to schedule a time for the visit; our department operates by appointment only. I help them figure out which parts of the collection they should see. Because many researchers come from long distances for a limited time, they must use their time as efficiently as possible. Given the cost of travel, a person may have only one opportunity to visit in their lifetime. For researchers who cannot make the trip, I regret that I do not have time to do the research for them. I try to answer questions, but there are limits to what I can do. The closest I came to doing research on behalf of others was during covid lockdown when I had more time available because so much of my other work could not be done. One possibility for researchers who cannot visit is to hire someone locally to do the research for them. I can try to help them find someone.
=-=-=-
Franz: How should someone who wants to study Tolkien academically at Marquette proceed (as student)?
Bill: To become a student at Marquette, you must apply to the University and get accepted. I recommend that anyone considering such a move first research Marquette and its curriculum. What program will you pursue? Which faculty member would you want as your advisor? Although I have faculty status, I am not attached to an academic department such as English or History and so I cannot act as an advisor. It is important that the student understands what is possible so that they are not disappointed. Students who attend other universities but who want to visit and research Tolkien at Marquette are treated just like the researchers described in my last answer.
=-=-=-
Franz: Can you tell us what differentiates the Marquette collection from the Bodleian collection in Oxford?
Bill: In terms of manuscripts, Marquette owns only those that it purchased from Tolkien in 1957, plus some letters written by Tolkien that we acquired over the years at auctions or as donations. The Bodleian holds many more Tolkien manuscripts than Marquette does. The Bodleian has Tolkien’s personal and professional papers as well as all his other manuscripts for the legendarium. For example, it has all the manuscripts for the Silmarillion legends except for a few stray pages that came to Marquette. The Bodleian also has most of Tolkien’s artwork, especially his paintings and finished maps. The drawings and maps that appear in Marquette’s collection are draft versions. We try to collect a copy of everything published about Tolkien and we also try to document the fandom that has risen around his works. As far I know, the Bodleian does not seek to do this.
=-=-=-
Franz: And finally… the question every fan wants to know: are there any prospects for new Tolkien or Tolkien-related works that could be released and that Marquette could contribute, directly or indirectly, to their release?
Bill: I do not know of any new Tolkien works that will be released. There are some interesting manuscripts in Marquette’s collection that have never been talked about, but nothing that amounts to an entirely new story set within Tolkien’s legendarium. We would all love to see a new story, or draft of a new story, discovered and published, but I suspect everything like that has already been made available. That was what Christopher Tolkien devoted so much of his adult life to doing. If an unpublished story existed, I imagine it would still be in the family’s possession, but I doubt such a thing exists.
=-=-=-=-
Franz: Thank you once again for your attention and availability.
Bill: Thanks, Franz. It was a pleasure.
=-=-=-=-
* Éored: a troop of Riders of Rohan, since the days of King Folcwine, it was made up of 120 men.
=-=-=-=-
Make part of the Tolkien Fandom Oral History Collection.
Schedule your interview here.
Access the digital collection here.
Check out the project dataset here.
-=-=-=-
On fairy-stories 